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Let's Talk About the Future of 5v5

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Valence

Valence

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Thread Starter #21
it would get very demotivating playing this game as a racer when your options for rules are trolling and diet trolling.

Another thought that I had on a similar subject is: why did we get rid of no overlap rules, and why is there no discussion of bringing it back? I actually thought that was very fun for both racers AND baggers.
....So you agree that trolling with stars creates a bad feeling of loss of control for racers, but don't see how the same applies to the shock duel? And then you suggest that a format that removes even more agency from baggers is fun for them? I mean, it's not that it's impossible for someone to find that fun, I'm just flabbergasted.

Runners don't have to worry about trolling, and baggers will ALWAYS have something to do (avoid getting overlapped). It brings in an interesting dynamic. Do you risk getting overlapped and go for shock in 10th? Or play it safe and stay ahead of the pack in 9th?
Giving baggers something to do is not giving them agency. Avoiding getting overlapped doesn't give me control over a race, it's me just running away from a mechanic that trying to strip me of control. At least under the suicide ruleset there were certain tracks that were skill based because I could naturally/easily get rid of the bill while going backwards (BC3, BCWii, MG, MH, GV) but this ruleset takes even THAT away....

The scenario you described is just making a decision between two bad options again, it's adding another layer of semi-uncontrollable risk without even addressing the existing problem. I'm still at the mercy of bill RNG but now I also have to gamble with my ability to contribute at all. It's no surprise why this ruleset got scrapped.
 
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Matt

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#22
A format we've been talking about in the Avail server is 4 shocks per team. Klyne and Xander are both right, but no matter how right both of them are, the fact is that there are way too few people who are willing to bag continuously without burning out and I don't think there's anything any of us can do about that. Ideally we create a format in which individual and team skill is as large of a factor as possible in determining the outcome, but also MKW is ultimately just a video game and it does this community a disservice if people are quitting because they get to the point where they actually loathe having to play at times.

The 4 shocks per team ruleset is simple - each team is allowed to use 4 shocks per war, you get -50 for each shock used after that, and trolling is not allowed. The number 4 is up for debate and could be changed, but that's not as important for now. First of all, this makes it so bagging is no longer mandatory every race. You also have to think more when using a shock; you shouldn't just waste one of your 4 to get one of your guys 7th instead of 8th. And because everyone is a racer and there's no trolling, everyone is for the most part in full control.

There are going to be some races where the guy with the shock ends up doing nothing because the team decides not to waste one of their shocks, but even in this scenario it's not as bad as being the bagger who lost the bagging war. For the first 30+ seconds of the race, the guy was racing as a normal racer, and even if you get the shock, it's more than likely your team will use it that race (because each team will probably get around 6 shocks, not ~10). A potential strategy is that after a team uses their 4 shocks, they suicide to prevent the other team from getting the shock (and end up holding it the whole race), but this would get them almost guaranteed last every race. The other team could suicide also to counteract this, so you might be thinking what's the point if it could turn into that anyway, but this situation won't last the whole 12 races and everyone starts the war acting as a racer (rather than "I need you to turn on the Wii so you can reverse all 12 races"). Most of the time though, I imagine it's just going to be all 10 people running, and whoever gets it gets it. I think this is better than all run because often times, all run turns into suicide after a couple of devastating shocks, but in the 4 shocks per team format people would be less inclined to start reversing midway through the war than in "all run" because there's much less benefit to doing so.

This is definitely not a perfect format but it does make it so there most often doesn't even need to be a bagger and I think this is something that people should try in casual scrims if nobody wants to bag. As far as the leagues go, in general I've always been in favor of allowing more things by mutual agreement as long as they're reasonable. For example, I do not support the home team being able to enforce no overlap or some crazy ruleset, but I don't really see an issue with 2 teams in a WL/EL match mutually agreeing to use the no overlap or 4 shocks per team format. It's not like one match being played like this ruins the integrity of anything, and both teams agreed to it so why not? You wouldn't allow them to make up whatever ruleset they wanted, otherwise it would get way too complicated, but giving teams a couple more options to play only via mutual agreement will allow them more flexibility to play in the way that they both want.

Anyway, again, this 4 shocks per team format is potentially an option for teams to play if they're having trouble finding someone willing to reverse. We'll probably be trying it out and see how it goes. Maybe it'll end up being a fairly decent format.
 

Cyrus

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#23
first of all, this MKPS announcement is very exciting. experimenting like this and taking initiative is exactly what we need. i’m very happy that there still are people interested in challenging and innovating competitive standards. good luck with the project!

secondly, i agree with the OP on everything, great post with a lot of insight on how competitive esports and game design actually work.

i also really like the ideas of @Leops and @Matt . unlike most esports, we do not have developer support (in the form of balance changes for example), which leaves the burden of innovation on the community. that’s why their ideas and the announcement of MKPS and is so important - it opens up so many opportunities for gameplay variations in the leagues, potentially giving the game new life.

now on to the subjective part of this post:

i agree that suicide bagging is essentially a big diceroll and it isn’t fun to play, but the item roulette is designed that way - you take chances on items in all positions. bagging of any kind is inevitable as it’s a necessary strategy at this point, and players who aren’t willing to sacrifice themselves for the benefit of their team probably have a different problem than just the format they’re playing. there will obviously never be a perfect solution for this.

with that said, the 2 suggestions in this thread are really good - Valence’s suggestion is great because it usually isn’t hard to avoid bills, and the bagger is freed up to do his job again after 8 seconds. Matt’s suggestion is great because it’s kind of the jack-of-all-trades: bagging isn’t a requirement (meaning the players burnt out by bagging will find a second wind), there’s a hard cap on shocks (meaning minimum 4 shockless races, thus many different tactical approaches rather than automatically suicide bagging every race) and the same person doesn’t have to bag every time.

some of my own suggestions:
- custom item distributions (this could be used to eliminate items to ban stars for 11th & 12th example, or balance items to make bagging less random). this would obviously have to be balance tested and regulated by the league, but i doubt it will ever be used.

- pick/ban system of some kind. it’s a neat idea for competition, but it’s hard to apply it in mkw. (one possible suggestion is to make both teams ban formats, but 1) there are too few to choose from, 2) this would be useless if there was a forced format.)
 

~Maidvelia❤︎~

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#24
Another thought that I had on a similar subject is: why did we get rid of no overlap rules, and why is there no discussion of bringing it back? I actually thought that was very fun for both racers AND baggers. Runners don't have to worry about trolling, and baggers will ALWAYS have something to do (avoid getting overlapped). It brings in an interesting dynamic. Do you risk getting overlapped and go for shock in 10th? Or play it safe and stay ahead of the pack in 9th? As a runner do you try to snipe or outplay the enemy bagger to force them to be overlapped? Do the same as the bagger? I think there is so much potential in the no overlap ruleset, and it is a shame it ever disappeared.
iirc the format was removed in leagues because of the amount of penalties and subjective situations it created. Would like to see it brought back, although I doubt many teams would pick it in league matches. It's defo a good scrim war format though
h. No Lapping
h.i. Baggers are not allowed to be overtaken by the runner in 1st.
h.ii. If the bagger has been overtaken by the runner in 1st, they will be unable to move, regardless of whether they are in possession of an item or not. Moving away from the main routes/middle of the track in order for other racers to get by is required from the baggers. Should a bagger claim they have not been lapped, baggers must provide footage of their own in order to negate a potential lap claim.
Split Paths: an lap occurs only once a split path merges into one single path (example: GV's cave section, BCWii's before-glitch section,..)h.iii. After having been lapped, Baggers cannot use any item they may have had prior to or after the lap -- this includes any item possible; breaking this rule will result in a 20 point penalty.
h.iv. Baggers will not be penalized for taking item boxes from runners before they are lapped by the Racer in 1st, as this gives baggers the opportunity to prevent themselves from being lapped. A penalty of 20 points will be given though if lapped baggers take item boxes which the opponent's runners would have had access to.
h.v. Trolling the runners with any items or by running into course hazards such as bomb karts will result in a 20 point penalty.
h.vi. Lapped baggers are not allowed to avoid getting passed thunder clouds, getting hit by any item or pushed off after they have been lapped, as they are required to stand idle; breaking this rule will result in a 10 point penalty.
It's there in WL still, not sure what EL did with it.

My thoughts:

Matt's suggestion is what I prefer most. It's got components of allrun in it while also requiring a bagger to have competency for the 4 shocks used. While I still would like a custom item distribution to nerf shock completely as an optional approach for allrun, this suggestion just might make wars fun again for people who want races with all 10 going forward, while not completely taking bagging out of the equation.

I'm going to revive Unbroken and try this out.
 
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#25
The only thing I dont like about 4 shocks per team is that it can promote shock holding. so for example let's say one team uses their 4 shocks basically later on they can still go for shock since holding it would still benefit the team who had already used their shocks because it removes the option of using the shock for the other team(leading to matches where one team can used their 4 shocks and the other team uses 2-3 because the other team was just holding the shock). Feel like the shock ruins 5v5 overall(shock in 9th really hurts the skill aspect of bagging) even in all run people would sandbag for shock since it is that broken; honestly no call all run would promote well actually all running since ur playing a guessing game for the most part for which team has shock however call is just a lot of fun and makes wars enjoyable
 

Viraith

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#26
^

just because a team has used all 4 of their shocks doesn't mean they wont prevent the other team from pulling any. it'll still be the same old "all run" at best where whoever is the team's lowest spot at 20 seconds sandbags or even suicides from the start

it doesnt solve the "bagging is boring" problem presented in the OP, and adds maybe a little strategy, but not enough to where I'd try it out

until shock is nerfed, there's going to be a huge incentive to obtain it, use it, hold it, you name it
 

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#27
I see no problem with holding shocks in allrun. All Stars did this for a while and it worked out for them. The races became more about running while holding than dodging up. You can still get a lineup of 5 racers with this instead of a dedicated bagger.

That sounds pretty good for "allrun" to me.
 

christan

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#28
Proposed ruleset: Trolling No-star

Under this ruleset, sandbaggers hitting players with the following items will incur a penalty:
  • Stars
  • Mega mushrooms
  • Shells
  • POW
  • Bombs
I got to play this format twice today, both times with different baggers and against different teams.

The first war was against a team of a lower skill level, and with a bagger that had a lot more experience with bagging than trolling. Our bagger said that he enjoyed this format quite a bit more than regular suicide, though their bagger (who was arguably worse at bagging than ours) wasn't able to have much impact as it seemed like he struggled to prioritise trolling over suiciding, or the other way around, when necessary.

The second war was against a team of a higher skill level, and this time, our bagger had both trolling and bagging experience, their bagger did too, however. The difference was quite noticable when our bagger experimented by trying out the Prowler. Some trollers, like Camelot for example, prefer trolling in a large kart, hence why he tried. He didn't stand a chance. The opposing bagger was able to both outrun him going backwards, and was able to manipulate runners more effectively as he could pull bill and easily keep up with the runners, while our bagger, while in a kart, didn't have such an easy time doing so. When bagging on a bike, the importance of manipulating runners became even more apparent. The opposing bagger did a very good job at screwing us over with just his character, or shrooms.

Personally, I enjoy this format more than trolling. I have to concentrate less on what the opposing bagger is doing, making races less tense. However, it became apparent that shock remains too strong, even when baggers are having influence through manipulating runners.

I feel as though, when playing this format, finding a perfect balance between having to prioritize going for shock or trolling might take some time, as it differs from trolling wars, because you can't constantly focus on one runner for long periods of time (as you would by chaining stars).

Just some early thoughts on my experience with this format, I hope it is useful in some way.
 
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#29
I see no problem with holding shocks in allrun. All Stars did this for a while and it worked out for them. The races became more about running while holding than dodging up. You can still get a lineup of 5 racers with this instead of a dedicated bagger.

That sounds pretty good for "allrun" to me.

Maid it still defeats the point of well nerfing shock and I think our biggest issue is the shock. It is a rng item(in sui in my opinion) and it is so broken that if you have 1 person Sandbagging fairly hard in all run it works because it is a legit strategy and ruins what all run is. Sadly we can't just go and ban it unlike let's say in the smash community when some tournaments ban Mk in brawl and double cloud in smash 4 doubles. If we really wanted to remove shock we would have to go and remove it from the item rng and no one wants to do that. Another format I can think of i guess is shockless all run and idk if people want that
 

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#30
Maid it still defeats the point of well nerfing shock and I think our biggest issue is the shock. It is a rng item(in sui in my opinion) and it is so broken that if you have 1 person Sandbagging fairly hard in all run it works because it is a legit strategy and ruins what all run is. Sadly we can't just go and ban it unlike let's say in the smash community when some tournaments ban Mk in brawl and double cloud in smash 4 doubles. If we really wanted to remove shock we would have to go and remove it from the item rng and no one wants to do that. Another format I can think of i guess is shockless all run and idk if people want that
I don't understand what you're talking about. That message was pretty jumbled.

If you don't need to grab a dedicated bagger for scrims with this format, that's all I give a damn about. I couldn't give a damn if shock is still a strategy, just have the person in last get it. At least people are going forward.
 

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#31
I have lots of experience both running and bagging with Avail. I've played a lot of time on both sides of the coin. Maybe it's just me, but yeah while rolling the dice sucks, I still think it's a fun role to play as is. I guess I probably am in the minority in thinking that RNG is just part of the role/game. I find it really fun trying to out-mindgame my opponent when bagging. Stuff like running from the other bagger when you have the shock is very fun to me.

From the runner side of things, you are right, I cannot stand trolling. To me it is literally no fun to play. It almost feels like it punishes good runners. I would agree that removing stars from trolling can help it, but even still it's annoying as hell (a troller can just exist and go for bumps and be a big thorn in the runner's side). Getting rid of stars would make trolling less of a pain, but it would get very demotivating playing this game as a racer when your options for rules are trolling and diet trolling.

Another thought that I had on a similar subject is: why did we get rid of no overlap rules, and why is there no discussion of bringing it back? I actually thought that was very fun for both racers AND baggers. Runners don't have to worry about trolling, and baggers will ALWAYS have something to do (avoid getting overlapped). It brings in an interesting dynamic. Do you risk getting overlapped and go for shock in 10th? Or play it safe and stay ahead of the pack in 9th? As a runner do you try to snipe or outplay the enemy bagger to force them to be overlapped? Do the same as the bagger? I think there is so much potential in the no overlap ruleset, and it is a shame it ever disappeared.
No overlap still exists in EL, and pretty sure in WL as well
 
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#32
So I just played the starless troll format and what I determined is that it’s 95% suicide. Majority of time when either of us had shock, trolling wasn’t really viable, plus the problem of holding a star became pretty apparent. Pulling them lap 3 is a real ender
 
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shoeguy

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#33
Maid it still defeats the point of well nerfing shock and I think our biggest issue is the shock. It is a rng item(in sui in my opinion) and it is so broken that if you have 1 person Sandbagging fairly hard in all run it works because it is a legit strategy and ruins what all run is. Sadly we can't just go and ban it unlike let's say in the smash community when some tournaments ban Mk in brawl and double cloud in smash 4 doubles. If we really wanted to remove shock we would have to go and remove it from the item rng and no one wants to do that. Another format I can think of i guess is shockless all run and idk if people want that
Why can't we ban shock for certain formats exactly? It isn't like it would be a mandatory thing lol, if teams want to play trolling no shock or shockless, they should have the option to
 

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#34
The main stage of the game should stay unaltered.

If side events want to use the item probability configuration, feel free.
 

Nick.

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#35
Here is a huge issue with wars and I'm not sure how to rectify it exactly but this happens constantly. I'm going to call out one team in particular but my teams have been guilty of this and tons of other teams have, it just happens to occur incredibly frequently with one team/group of players.

We accepted a war vs Phantasmagoria tonight and they said they could 5v5 in 20, and then told us to open at around 8:50. We open room, and our last player joins at 9:02 or so. We then proceeded to wait 25 minutes (35 minutes after room opened) with all of us in the room, waiting on their last. We were told he had 2 races left, then 3 races left, and that he was almost there, but this is fucking inexcusable, and this is far from the first time this has happened with the EM/Pt/EU whatever group. Not only is accepting a war without 5, or making your opponents wait for 20+ minutes extremely inconsiderate (imagine if you were consistently 20-30 minutes late to hang out with people), but it leaves your opponents stuck in limbo. They can't accept another war because there ARE no other wars, and they all want to play mkw so they are usually just stick it out and wait, while that one guy takes his sweet time. If we want wars to come back, this behavior cannot be tolerated, especially repeatedly. This horrible feeling of waiting/wasting time perpetuates the cycle of wars becoming less and less active, as people have better things to do than sit in a room waiting for some dumbass to finish playing fortnite or whatever, especially when they can easily just mogi instead, and then more teams are dying/not warring. Teams take advantage of their opponent's time and the team that joins promptly always has to suffer because if they want to war, there usually is no other alternative (5v5s are rare enough as it is).

There needs to be some type of penalty or something that discourages this behavior because this is a huge reason as to why wars are so inactive. Why would you play a war when you know all of this is more than likely going to happen. To reiterate, I/my teams have been guilty of this at times, but this team just happens to be a particularly egregious example. Also, sometimes something comes up and you have a legitimate reason to take time to join a room. At this point, be courteous, take the initiative, and either cancel the war if it doesn't look like you'll find a 5th (or find one quickly) or at least apologize for wasting the opponent's time. If anyone has any ideas on how to improve this I'd love to hear it.
 

Viraith

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#36
Not only is accepting a war without 5, or making your opponents wait for 20+ minutes extremely inconsiderate
cant count on both my hands how many times you've:

a. gone to bed cus you "popped a melly!!" after accepting a war
b. CS accepted a war while you were "driving home"

only person who consistently joins late is haseo who's not on the team anymore, and today was poor communication. the other 4 of us went through the same feeling the other 5 of you felt too, believe me we werent happy

down to mutually agree to BA's joining rule where every x minutes is a penalty, but you could cut your post in half and make it more constructive instead of taking a shot at my team. sorry tonight didnt work out but we both know you wouldnt have posted this if it were someone else
 

Wally

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#40
I think the problem is, is that you're punishing the whole team and at this point I fear it would result in more cancellations. The worst part was how someone had the audacity to play victim and insult my team members for being tired of waiting after 35 minutes. As a group we all should be more mindful of other people's time, even if you don't care about the team you're playing against you should care about your own team members.

Maybe the answer is making sure before a war is accepted that all participants are ready to go, as a participant make sure that you don't afk without informing your team you are going afk and are no longer able to play. Maybe the answer is scheduled wars, plan for a specific time even if it's just 20 minutes out to allow everyone to finish what they're doing.

Remember that we're all in the same community wanting the same thing, there's no reason to be hostile with one another when we all want to just play a children's racing game together.

If anyone else has more ideas on this leave them here or even send them to me directly.
 
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