My Raw, Unfiltered Opinion on The Current State of MarioKartBoards, as a Former Admin

elec

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#2
i will take the initiative of stirring up the pot even more on this topic, something that the op was hoping would happen with this thread's creation, this will probably read as more of a ramble than anything but at this point i'm grasping at straws. the state of this website needs more attention than what people are currently giving, and as a result needs more action than what people are taking. i find it shocking and appalling that people will scoff at the forums just because discord exists and they believe discord can do everything a forum can do, yet if the forums were to close down like the other forums before it, these same people would then plead and cry that the history of the scene would get deleted yet again.
for the people asking themselves questions like "why not use discord over a forum, they're so outdated." i will explain here: a live chat is great for having real time discussion, but does not lend itself to being very visible, for both people not lurking in the chat at the time or people that aren't in the server (which could be new people interested in joining the scene). a forum is good for discussing more expansive topics that anyone, even people not in the community can see and easily find and reference years from now. both are important and should co-exist with each other since they both serve their own distinct purposes that i will state again; one for quick discussion with involved community members, the other for discussions that also communicate to visitors that the community is active and always has things to talk about or resources to reference.

imo this "why use a forum lol" mentality is only further reinstated is because there hasn't been much action taken to try improve the forum, or bring something that'll make people want to use it. in the vod, you mentioned a registry system similar to mkc, i was not familiar with its functions so i took a look at mkc and, wow this is actually so great. while i dont think this has to replace clan threads since those hold their own value to some people, i just like all the information the registry has, such as standard registry info of players like fcs, current teams (or teams for each of the different leagues), info of teams including what leagues they're participating in, what language they primarily communicate in, past league results, and who is in their squad. however, the best part of mkc's registry is that it has a transaction log of every transfer for every league, be it new player registrations or transfer to teams, color coded too. from an accounting standpoint, mkc's approach absolutely hits home with me, especially since i currently despise how mkb handles its transfer and registration threads, deleting from public view moment they are approved. while adding a registry similar to mkc would take a lot of time and effort, i believe it's worth trying to implement seeing as how there's just numerous benefits that come with adding one such as a public log of player transfers and registrations, detailed player and team history, and you know, these benefits will increase site traffic too.

the vod also mentioned smaller features like awards. if i understood right you said before you had to create individual awards for every season of a league but now you can have general awards like "mkps winner", "ctl division 2 winner", "x ffa winner", and have a description that could state specifics like, what season of ctl, what year of mkps, etc. but the latter feature is under a paid feature. i definitely support having some kind of award system, but if there is an unpaid version of the awards feature like the former, i suppose you can get around it by adding awards that just go "former ctl division 2 winner" or "former mkps winner", something like that, i know other sites that do this. either way it'd look really cool and help make users feel differentiated for having a medal from playing good mario kart, i know many people that get ecstatic over a 16x16 pixel under their name and i'm sure mkw players are no exception seeing as banner hunter has become somewhat of a pejorative. all it takes is for staff to take action, and as the inaugural mkps and ctl are rounding up, i think now is a better time than ever for an awards system to be implemented.

personally, what i'd like to see the most out of mkb are writeups and analyses of the league, like analyses of each of the groups in a league, the teams in the group, standout players, the type of stuff that you would see in a predictions stream but more structured and informative. this was brought up in an mkb affiliate server but having weekly recaps or some type of recap would also be really nice which could analyze the complexion of the tournament, how the teams have performed, what they could do to succeed, etc. i'd also like to see more resources that new players can look to for improvement and other players can point reference to, such as dartii's waluigi stadium tutorial. it doesn't have to be limited to track tutorials obviously, there could be a thread that talks about shock usage, maybe a thread that lists every cycle-based object on the 32 nintendo tracks. now i realize that for all of these to happen that we would need writers that are motivated and knowledgeable enough, but if a couple players were able to write analyses for mkwc group stages, it isn't impossible at all. oh and if you really want to get people motivated, maybe add the award system mentioned earlier and give awards to people that write numerous high quality articles be it leagues or resources, wonder where that idea came from.

i'm not sure how to close this off since i still have so many different thoughts about the site as a whole that i'm not sure how to put in words and i'm also extremely tired so it's even more difficult to get those out. what i will say is that the community should realize that there are visitors and new players that are looking to get into the game competitively, and that mkb is one of the first sites the visit, likely in the hopes of finding articles, resources, and general discussions. if none of that is there or it is in minimal quantity, then it'll be difficult for one to get accustomed to the community, which isn't something we want. the staff have far greater ability in making the site more appealing for everyone to use, i'd really like to see them try to implement something, have something new to look forward too.

oh also it's ridiculous that the last thread in announcements was 4 months ago. at least have some stickied thread in announcements that functions as a log of who recently got promoted to what section of staff, be it mkps, ctl, media, rl, anything. it's just nice to get people recognized for that stuff and makes them value their role more.
 
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Fruitz

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#3
I didn't plan on watching this vod but I did because I was bored.

To me at least it seems like the easiest and best solution would just be a MKCentral merge. They have the advancements this site doesn't have readily available, so why waste extra time creating those here when they are already there? From what I saw on Twitter, it unfortunately seems like some 8dx people don't want MKW on their site though, which is a shame (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong but this is what I thought I saw earlier).

I remember when this site got Announcement threads every month or two, now it's a barren wasteland for people to post mkps and ctl results with the occasional clan thread war table update, which again is unfortunate.
 

Nozzles

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#7
MKU/Central staff initially left all association with MKB as there was a clear bias in MKB staff towards placing a majority focus on MKW over MK8/D. Therefore, there wasn't much of a concrete future for MK8 and latter games on this forum, which spawned the creation of MKC.

While I don't necessarily believe there is any true animosity that exists between MKB and MKC, I do think that the generally toxic environment that exists within the MKW community is something they do not want to involve themselves in. Having been on staff in this community, I can definitely say I got praise or positivity maybe 10% of the time, while the other 90% was just aggression, insults, ghosting, defiance, and whatever else people could think to do to be as uncooperative as possible. Even from a non-staff point of view, this toxicity still remains as a prominent staple in this community and, from what I have seen, is not nearly as widespread in the MK8/D community.

While a merge may seem like a reasonable idea, Fruitz's comment is right, and they would likely not consider the idea as a means of not bringing the toxicity that exists within this community to their forum.
 

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#9
As a member who is in both communities, I don't really want to see the merge whatsoever.

Everyone talks about how great their site is and how advanced it is, then why not get the funding here and make it happen here? Valence got the funding and got a developer to do it for lounge, so it's not like it's out of the question. Adding it to MKCentral will just put a huge burden on them, especially to their developer, Jazzy. who I am friends with irl and I know just how busy it is for him to keep updating MKC for free while working full time. He doesn't have the time to add another game to the site, especially since he does everything for no price. The only way I could see them being able to physically add the MKWii community onto their site is by funding them.

Everything on the site will just be super crowded if we added a 3rd game. The MK8Deluxe and the MKTour community are both bigger than the MKWii community themselves, so you can imagine how many people will be integrated onto one forum. Currently, the 8DX community runs tournament matches around 42 weekends of the 52 weekends in the year. Adding another game to the site just eliminates the amount of tournaments they run and will create clashes between different leagues running at the same time, etc. The only thing we'd really be doing on their forum would be getting in their way so there's no point in them agreeing for us to join their site.

As well, if we joined their site, a lot of changes would be made on site and off of site. For one, they don't really use the forums for threads to talk about stuff apart from a couple problems they have in their community. Aside from those, they only really use the forums for the registry and to post match results for leagues and tournaments. They don't use clan threads, they hardly use the discussion channels and they hardly use the player hub sections, don't have a looking for team / recruiting thread, etc. They don't have lounge on their site, they still use google sheets for that. The biggest change is most of their useful threads are all in their main discord server, MKCentral. That's where they organize on site tournaments (not leagues), have their ONLY war-chat and have their recruitment area (looking for players, looking for team). A lot of their stuff is done through Discord, which is something that I would suggest the MKWii community doing.

Finally, one of the biggest reasons is that the toxicity in this community is beyond what is seen in the 8DX community. Changes would need to be made in this community to live up to the standard in the other community. If I had to guess, I'd say that around 20% of this community would be banned from the entire 8DX community if they act the way they act here. The 8DX community is a lot stricter for things and ban players entirely from the community for months for doing stuff that we kinda just brush off here. So yeah, policies would need to be met and players would need to make changes. One thing I've seen lately is on MKBoards streams, you people who just end up flaming D1 players because they did something wrong which wouldn't end up being acceptable in the 8DX community. Just something to think about if we transfer over to MKCentral.

At the end of the day, the MKWii community has nothing to offer the MK8DX community if we wanna move over.
 
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Thread Starter #10
Just want to make a reminder that merging with MKC is not the focal point of my VOD. Please don't only focus on that topic when posting in this thread. The focal point is that many features and ideas were in the works during my time as admin and none of them have come to fruition under the new admins. It's also about how the liveliness of the site is at an all-time low, both admins are MIA, and we haven't received any update from staff in 5 months.
 
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okereke

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#11
I would love to see an MKB discord server open to the public someday
Im not gonna lie, I tried to get into the competitive scene of MK8D and sincerely didnt liked the game at all, BUT, the way things are handed over there are way better than in MKW
Toxicity will always be a problem in a competitive environment (not only on video games) and it will depend on the people in charge the way these issues are handled, which in my opinion, MKW handles them very poorly (Lounge as an example)
I will say that we need to focus on other problems on the community BEFORE we take a look at the MKB site

Now regarding to the site itself, MK8D left this forum for a reason, why MKC will accept us back? when we had the MK community in one place was a total mess
Why the current staff wont let KD fund they ideas? (using they/them since im not sure about KD's pronouns)
I know KD has a rough past as a former admin, but, they have a lot of ideas that could be implemented so well to the site (the award system, new registry for example) (as a RA i can say that the process of registering or updating fc feels OUTDATED)
im not saying we are gonna see a drastic change regarding the activity on the site, but, at least, there will be more to see than League results, registry and people memeing on the recruitment section (lets be honest, at least 4 out of 10 messages there is people joking), we have a "the museum" section on the site, whats the purpose of that? i could ask the same for most of the sections on here.

KD explains with a lot of detail they opinions on the site itself, the video is a great resume of why the site is on its current state for newcomers. In which other community people cant decide a new logo and therefore not do shit on the forum because of that? im not saying that the people on the current staff are not capable of doing the job, but, if something as simple as a logo wont let the site grow, something needs to be done.

Sadly, the only answer this thread has gotten from a "staff" member is from Articuno (and he isnt MKB staff, but he is staff on everything else).

if the staff decides not to go with KD funding idea (if its still a thing) at least fix the sections on the site, or just leave "leagues" "lounge" "registrations" since at this point is the only purpose of this forum
 

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#12
Been seeing this topic float around and other people have messaged me about it, and I've thought about it and I'm just going to post my thoughts here to either confirm what people are assuming / clear doubt or to even give a realistic picture of MKC's perspective.

To start off, Nozzles is correct that we didn't leave MKB out of any kind of spite. I personally had been a user of this site for years, and even got to be part of the staff team for a little, and as time kept passing it became abundantly clear that meaningful change was quite literally impossible. Threads were made challenging the community every other month about how something was very wrong and something needed to change, but nothing was ever going to happen. A lot of members of the old MKB (and maybe now, but I don't know) clearly liked how the site was. They wouldn't say it, but they liked how MKB operated because of how it was, not in spite of what it was. Some people didn't actually want change, because the site benefit them already. The issue is lots of those players were people with heavy influence.

There was a point in time where I nearly got promoted to admin of MKBoards, and if I was I had lots of the same ideas that we ended up doing with MKC, but I was way less confident about it then because I thought the community would heavily resist these ideas. The admin who offered it gave me the choice to take it, but I requested that the entire staff team would approve it if I were to be promoted. The offer got revoked the next day. I could've just accepted it instantly maybe, but the reason why I didn't was because I knew implementing changes would've been incredibly hard, and if I didn't even have the full support the current staff team, it would've been like being a president when the entire Senate/House was the opposite party. I eventually gave up on MKB changing, and then MK8DX came out and watching the game being treated as the secondary game of the site was incredibly frustrating. The game was not only new, but it was driving in the majority of users to the site and I felt it's potential on a console as the Switch was being greatly limited and that community morale was absolutely awful. Not only was the general mood toxic, but the site was literally self deprecating. For example I remember Eric would just come on this site and literally 95% of his posts were just trashing on the community. These were like the most liked posts on every thread they were on. Here's another example, after my post recent post:
Now the guy isn't wrong, the pedophile shit was awful and those people needed to be called the fuck out, but the whole point is that not enough people are making suggestions to fix issues that ever gain any traction. People would rather just laugh at how shit the community is. Even the shitpost in this thread is the most liked post in the thread. What the fuck is wrong with you guys? Did everyone just give up? It's like the whole reputation era of MKB never left. Who would actually want to be part of a community where everyone who is active in it has nothing good to say about it ever? Maybe it sucks in lots of ways, but there has to be some positive that is keeping all of you here. Or maybe you're all insane??

It makes sense that MKW was prioritized looking at the staff at the time. Only a few of them were 8D players. But the realization set in that all of our side of the community's best staff members had quit because they didn't think it was worth it anymore, or gave up. And to me, that was another giant problem. I think the other big problem for our side of the community is that the MKWii playerbase is much more vocal than our side is. You can see way more posts on MKB when the posts are happening. Results threads are usually pretty quiet on MKC. This kind of translates to media also. The one thing I think the MKWii scene really has over us is the media presence and emphasis on content creation. It seems the scene is more outgoing than ours, but while this can be a positive, it can be a negative when the community tolerates people to act like shit to others over lounge performance or because they made a mistake on stream. What also happens with this vocal group is a vocal negativity toward the game they like less. Both 8U / 8D were repeatedly shit on (mainly for being different and not even necessarily worse) by MKWii players, and I don't think that is really is healthy for a game that's trying to grow. It may not seem like a big deal, but there's a lot more positivity about the game on our site because it's made up of players that at the very least respect the game as a legitimate competitive game. The community and game have absolutely blossomed and practically tripled in size since we left MKB. Now there were other reasons for this, but a site that makes the game out to be not worth someone's time just makes newcomers who like the game turn the opposite way immediately. It was disgusting. We're now just starting to see the potential the game really has. And this is why we had to leave. There was all this talk of change, but it's like the community didn't actually want to fix it. So our community leaders felt there was no other choice but to start from the ground up where we didn't have to deal with any existing stigmas surrounding the game / community.

It's really easy to talk about what needs to change, but to actually set out and do them, it makes people have to actually acknowledge legitimate opposing viewpoints. It was a really hard thing to do and felt like complete betrayal when it was never supposed to be like that. I'm really happy that people are actually understanding of why we left now. Now, I'm going to say first of all, the MKW community is not entitled to come over to our site if they think it's the best solution to them. The world simply doesn't work that way - we don't owe the MKW community anything really. It's not that I personally want the community to not be better off, but what is most important to me and the others is that our site succeeds. I'm not sure what the MKW scene would be offering us to push us to the next step outside of just more headaches. Something would need to be in it for us. The promise of more activity is something, but the net gain has to be above zero, and the community clearly has baggage that needs to be addressed to make us ever feel good about that happening. It's a long way off.

Our site doesn't have threads like "Time for Change". It's not something we're interested in bringing it over either. What this means is that if the MKW community were to join our site, everything would have to be changed to fit with our system, and personally, I think the community representatives here don't actually want that. Until they do, we're not going to consider it. I think we have the blueprint to community growth, so running things in a way we don't see as ideal is not something we're going to compromise on. We've let it happen before, and I'll just say we're not going to let MKW hold us back again in any way. If they want to join us, it's our way or the highway, which I believe is fair because I think we now have a legitimate claim that our system is better / more organized. And even if the community actually collectively agreed to our terms, I think a ton of changes still need to happen before that happens just in how the mentality is. In the past we felt like change couldn't happen because opposition to our ideas would just bottleneck everything. Now that we've been able to succeed without any limitations, we aren't planning on giving that up, in short.

------

Now, I actually want the best for the MKW scene. So I have a few recommendations that I believe I actually have some credibility to suggest now, based on my experiences with MKC.

First of all, I quite literally don't know what the hell this site's goals are. It's not obvious in any way, shape or form. It felt like this when we were here, and after, it felt like the site makes arbitrary actions. When we added a Stream tab to MKC (its been removed but back when), MKB followed suit almost like it was trying to compete. It's obvious to me why it happened. It's because we prompted them to do it. If we didn't break off, does anyone believe that happens? The point is, MKB got by just doing whatever. I don't think they planned ahead at all. My site staff job for the most part was just dealing with ban cases. That's like 20% of the job on MKC. On MKC we're putting together schedules, figuring out what leagues we want to have, what extensions would fill a void here or there, etc.

A while back I asked what the difference between WL and EL were. I think they've changed now but the answer I got then was "I don't know." To me, this just screams we don't know what the hell our mission is. What is the purpose of having two leagues identical in structure competing with each other? It's redundant. For us, we have just MKU. Then we try other things out to compliment MKU. WL and EL looked like they were competing with each other. Then you have other leagues popping up later also. I guess CL is for newcomers who can't join the MKPS because it's been a year long thing? If not, the thing is, we don't need another league for newcomers, because division formatted tournaments already serve to be a thing for newcomers to begin with. MKPS makes it make sense however. And I know these leagues have seen changes and upgraded a little, and it's not a knock on those staff teams. It just seems that site is indecisive on what it wants. MKPS I've been a big fan of actually, because it seems finally like there's finally some definitive event that we're investing in. It's best that we just have a competition that people can agree is the main thing going on, and if the staff team of the main league is ever inefficient, the comm should just agree to redoing the staff. MKPS was the thing I saw recently though that I actually liked seeing out of this site though, so that's cool. It felt like there was finally some direction. I saw another tournament going on that's labelled the Old School League I think recently also. This isn't a knock on the organizers, because maybe these guys are doing a great job and just need exposure as a TO. The issue I have is that it just looks like yet another WCL format event just like CL. Maybe one is for veterans and one is for newcomers, but why not just have 1 larger league if they're both doing the same thing? Maybe I'm ignorant of the reasons behind everything, but it also has made me realize that it's not very clear. On MKC, every event we have on the site is very intentional and has an exact reason to exist, to fill a hole that maybe we haven't addressed otherwise. We plan everything around each other.

Now, I want to challenge the idea that a site is even needed. Forums are dying for good reason, and Discord is more than a suitable replacement. You could run the entire MKPS on Discord for instance. Our site is simply things we see as pretty necessary. It appeared to be a MKB-like forum at first, but it was always the plan to add features. Our site brings in some money by just having interesting things to look at. An interactive registry that people actually need to use allows for easier registration and result tracking, that all looks super clean. This is something Discord can't do. What is MKB currently offering that can't be done via Discord / Google Sheets? I'm not sure. Now, Lounge leaderboard on MKB is fine, don't get me wrong. But is this justification for the site existing?

We did away with the clan section because we think it's simply useless spam. If you believe a clan section is necessary though, you might as well have it not look dead. If you take a good look at the forums home, half the site isn't even used. A ton of sections haven't been touched in months including announcements, which is the site staff's literal job. Then you have the Museum section which was a plan from like 3 administrations ago, and nobody has even thought to maybe cut the losses and delete the section as it's incredibly clear it's not going to be used any time soon. That section has been up for so long that MKC got created and coded an entirely new system in the form of registry result storage that is doing what the original plan was for the museum, all in the span after that forum got created. Then there's the MK7 category, which may be even more harmful than it is meaningless. It's like the site is trying to pretend they have a MK7 scene here when it has absolutely no presence here at all. The thing is, this may make the few new MK7 players believe this is where MK7 is supposed to be, but that just nobody plays it, when that's entirely not true. They have their own lounge server that is fairly active. The lounge leaderboard on MKB isn't even the current leaderboard. The admin of it had to make a new post explaining what is happening and I think almost nobody here even cares or knows. There's a war arrangement thread in the MK7 section that has been sitting there for over an entire year, and it hasn't been used a single time. This looks literally so dumb from the outside perspective. My suggestion is to give the boards a clean scrubbing and make sure that everything that is still there has a reason to be there. This treatment to a game like MK7 is exactly why we had to leave. If the site can't even give enough of a shit to even figure out the current link to their actually active lounge, what would've happened to us if we didn't do anything?

Want to know a better place to have spam than clan threads? War arrangement threads? Help / suggestions? Discord servers. Part of the reason our forum is pretty inactive is because we realize that Discord is better. We used to have multiple community servers for MK8, and when we developed MKC, I was like, what's the purpose of having multiple war chats? Wouldn't it be more efficient for people to search in the same place? Two people could be searching for a war in different chats and never find a match that was out there. This goes back to the whole idea of knowing what you want and making it easier for people. When you have competing servers, everything becomes a mess. This site needs to be intentional with what it's doing and have the confidence to make shit work. I'd highly suggest ticket tool for the hypothetical MKB discord server by the way, as well. Our Discord server & site both have purpose because they both offer things the other can't. Having a site also helps obtain IPs to help with Alt protection in lounge for instance.

Features are important for a community. We're actively discussing the next project months in advance and Jazzy is doing an unbelievable job this year making the site better than the year before. By actually planning stuff ahead and understanding our goals, we're able to keep him not incredibly stressed / make the work enjoyable at times because we don't just randomly give him deadlines. We're like hey, this is what our next step is, when do you think we could get it done reasonably? Even with this loose approach, we're apparently dropping entirely new features that have to be developed at a faster pace than MKB announcements. This stuff is hard, I understand. Coders have to be motivated too. The best way for it to be motivating is to have a vision and see results, because it gives the work more meaning. If this is something that may be too difficult, I could see why MKC would be an attractive option. Again I'd never shut the door 100% on this, but if this is something the MKW community wants, they can at least start by changing up their community mentality and approach. Easier said than done though.

I personally believe the mentality / community leaders in this scene have done an incredibly poor job. I can't sit back and act like an expert anymore as an outsider, but I get the impression that top players are allowed to get away with shit like belittling people who are trying to learn the game because they pissed them off in lounge or something. This leads to these players becoming more hated, so of course people are going to counter by acting like trash on their streams when they mess up. It all escalates from there. People literally have to be better. This was hard for us, but I think it started to change a bit for our community when the top teams started to develop a mutual respect for each other and even our staff team. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, we've had some personal toxic bouts with some of the other top teams in 8D history, but I can at least respect the hell out of some of the other teams we face. One was incredibly toxic at the turn of the year and we simply approached them about it and they actually improved significantly. They put the community ahead of their own ego, and even as a rival I was extremely proud of them for that change. The ones who won't listen to shit have to go I think, as unfortunate as it is. I feel like we're pretty lenient now, but compared to MKB we're probably very strict. We couldn't get away with this on MKB because it's hard to just change the culture as I've pointed out before, but yeah.

Staff members who were on MKB back when I was still here didn't know how to create change. And I can't really blame them, because I couldn't do it on MKB. The thing is, nobody is individually responsible for the site's failure in some areas and as a result, the team developed a gigantic complacency where they simply wanted to defend themselves before helping site users because they felt unfairly attacked. It's no one individual's fault here. The community was completely unfair to the staff team before and after my time on the staff. And that sucks, but unfortunately if the staff team gets fed up because of how unfair of a job it is, no changes get made in the end. This is another reason why we had to leave. Only with good leadership and a good idea of what the community actually wants to achieve can change really happen.

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but I was just really frustrated with this community in the past and feel the need to just call it how I think it is. Please don't take any of this as needless aggression, because this wasn't the intent at all. Anyways, hoping for the best. I hear the admins are working on some stuff but it is pretty clear the community is either right or aren't being properly informed enough. Our staff record at MKC isn't perfect but it at least seems the community has some sort of trust in us that I just don't see here. So that should really get patched up. Open dialogue is good, and like I mentioned that may've been the number 1 weakness of this site when we were still here. The staff wasn't really interested in open discussions.
 
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LogDaLemon

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4644-5692-8517
#13
With our admins being MIA for the moment who should we trust now obviously the MKB staff, but obviously jobs aren't getting done and that needs to change as soon as possible. First of all, what are the staff doing right now. Our boards staff need to add some thought and discussion within our website. By now all staff have seen and read the thread, and it obviously highlights what is missing throughout our 2 year period on this website. I think its time that we take a risk, and attempt either electing more active admins that are willing to make decisions for the community instead of sitting here and not doing anything with a ban(Mike, Luke etc)or we have to completely move to discord.A move to discord will be much harder as we have to advertise the discord and obviously people will not join it, but if we can try hard enough, it can look very good. Now moving onto administrator ideas. I feel that as a community as a whole, staff team as a whole are just looking out for bans and discussions and never really addressing the problem as a whole. Our community should be growing at a much higher rate than it is right now due to the lack of engagement from staff team and how obscure our community has become. How can we combat this: Make posts on the website to welcome other and direct them where we need to go; as to a newbie's point of view, not much can be found explaining such things so easily (This calls for redesigning our website to make it more user friendly). We should also elect new staff members to the site, those who want to be staff and are friendly and encouraging (Not naming names but some staff members give off the opposite vibe). I have much more to add but it will be edited in at a later time but just think about it, because myself and many others know its time to move on from this stalemate and decide to start something innovative to prevent this from happening again within the near future. By no means I mean to bash certain people, look to improve from this.
 

Tea

Administrator
Administrator
Media Staff
Joined
Jun 25, 2018
Messages
203
#14
I really want to apologize for being suddenly MIA recently. I've been trying to focus on myself recently, but I've done it in a manner where I've neglected to look at the community. I'm not asking for forgiveness, because I really don't think I deserve it as I failed to serve all of you. I hope to discuss some of the bans that have happened recently, I know that the CoC has been established, but we should be talking about the case that happened based on the old rules. Cases of that nature will be handled by the MKB moderating team and me. While it is easy to blame the moderating team, they've been given a lack of direction by me. So instead of getting being angry at them, please direct your anger towards me.

As for the negligence of the site, there is stuff behind the scenes that I'm not allowed to talk about, but there are plans.
Additionally, I am not heading those plans as well, so I don't know when they will be announced. Hopefully the people involved in those will make an announcement soon enough.
 
Last edited:

Dermo

Active member
MKPS Staff
Joined
Jun 30, 2018
Messages
264
#15
Been seeing this topic float around and other people have messaged me about it, and I've thought about it and I'm just going to post my thoughts here to either confirm what people are assuming / clear doubt or to even give a realistic picture of MKC's perspective.

To start off, Nozzles is correct that we didn't leave MKB out of any kind of spite. I personally had been a user of this site for years, and even got to be part of the staff team for a little, and as time kept passing it became abundantly clear that meaningful change was quite literally impossible. Threads were made challenging the community every other month about how something was very wrong and something needed to change, but nothing was ever going to happen. A lot of members of the old MKB (and maybe now, but I don't know) clearly liked how the site was. They wouldn't say it, but they liked how MKB operated because of how it was, not in spite of what it was. Some people didn't actually want change, because the site benefit them already. The issue is lots of those players were people with heavy influence.

There was a point in time where I nearly got promoted to admin of MKBoards, and if I was I had lots of the same ideas that we ended up doing with MKC, but I was way less confident about it then because I thought the community would heavily resist these ideas. The admin who offered it gave me the choice to take it, but I requested that the entire staff team would approve it if I were to be promoted. The offer got revoked the next day. I could've just accepted it instantly maybe, but the reason why I didn't was because I knew implementing changes would've been incredibly hard, and if I didn't even have the full support the current staff team, it would've been like being a president when the entire Senate/House was the opposite party. I eventually gave up on MKB changing, and then MK8DX came out and watching the game being treated as the secondary game of the site was incredibly frustrating. The game was not only new, but it was driving in the majority of users to the site and I felt it's potential on a console as the Switch was being greatly limited and that community morale was absolutely awful. Not only was the general mood toxic, but the site was literally self deprecating. For example I remember Eric would just come on this site and literally 95% of his posts were just trashing on the community. These were like the most liked posts on every thread they were on. Here's another example, after my post recent post:
Now the guy isn't wrong, the pedophile shit was awful and those people needed to be called the fuck out, but the whole point is that not enough people are making suggestions to fix issues that ever gain any traction. People would rather just laugh at how shit the community is. Even the shitpost in this thread is the most liked post in the thread. What the fuck is wrong with you guys? Did everyone just give up? It's like the whole reputation era of MKB never left. Who would actually want to be part of a community where everyone who is active in it has nothing good to say about it ever? Maybe it sucks in lots of ways, but there has to be some positive that is keeping all of you here. Or maybe you're all insane??

It makes sense that MKW was prioritized looking at the staff at the time. Only a few of them were 8D players. But the realization set in that all of our side of the community's best staff members had quit because they didn't think it was worth it anymore, or gave up. And to me, that was another giant problem. I think the other big problem for our side of the community is that the MKWii playerbase is much more vocal than our side is. You can see way more posts on MKB when the posts are happening. Results threads are usually pretty quiet on MKC. This kind of translates to media also. The one thing I think the MKWii scene really has over us is the media presence and emphasis on content creation. It seems the scene is more outgoing than ours, but while this can be a positive, it can be a negative when the community tolerates people to act like shit to others over lounge performance or because they made a mistake on stream. What also happens with this vocal group is a vocal negativity toward the game they like less. Both 8U / 8D were repeatedly shit on (mainly for being different and not even necessarily worse) by MKWii players, and I don't think that is really is healthy for a game that's trying to grow. It may not seem like a big deal, but there's a lot more positivity about the game on our site because it's made up of players that at the very least respect the game as a legitimate competitive game. The community and game have absolutely blossomed and practically tripled in size since we left MKB. Now there were other reasons for this, but a site that makes the game out to be not worth someone's time just makes newcomers who like the game turn the opposite way immediately. It was disgusting. We're now just starting to see the potential the game really has. And this is why we had to leave. There was all this talk of change, but it's like the community didn't actually want to fix it. So our community leaders felt there was no other choice but to start from the ground up where we didn't have to deal with any existing stigmas surrounding the game / community.

It's really easy to talk about what needs to change, but to actually set out and do them, it makes people have to actually acknowledge legitimate opposing viewpoints. It was a really hard thing to do and felt like complete betrayal when it was never supposed to be like that. I'm really happy that people are actually understanding of why we left now. Now, I'm going to say first of all, the MKW community is not entitled to come over to our site if they think it's the best solution to them. The world simply doesn't work that way - we don't owe the MKW community anything really. It's not that I personally want the community to not be better off, but what is most important to me and the others is that our site succeeds. I'm not sure what the MKW scene would be offering us to push us to the next step outside of just more headaches. Something would need to be in it for us. The promise of more activity is something, but the net gain has to be above zero, and the community clearly has baggage that needs to be addressed to make us ever feel good about that happening. It's a long way off.

Our site doesn't have threads like "Time for Change". It's not something we're interested in bringing it over either. What this means is that if the MKW community were to join our site, everything would have to be changed to fit with our system, and personally, I think the community representatives here don't actually want that. Until they do, we're not going to consider it. I think we have the blueprint to community growth, so running things in a way we don't see as ideal is not something we're going to compromise on. We've let it happen before, and I'll just say we're not going to let MKW hold us back again in any way. If they want to join us, it's our way or the highway, which I believe is fair because I think we now have a legitimate claim that our system is better / more organized. And even if the community actually collectively agreed to our terms, I think a ton of changes still need to happen before that happens just in how the mentality is. In the past we felt like change couldn't happen because opposition to our ideas would just bottleneck everything. Now that we've been able to succeed without any limitations, we aren't planning on giving that up, in short.

------

Now, I actually want the best for the MKW scene. So I have a few recommendations that I believe I actually have some credibility to suggest now, based on my experiences with MKC.

First of all, I quite literally don't know what the hell this site's goals are. It's not obvious in any way, shape or form. It felt like this when we were here, and after, it felt like the site makes arbitrary actions. When we added a Stream tab to MKC (its been removed but back when), MKB followed suit almost like it was trying to compete. It's obvious to me why it happened. It's because we prompted them to do it. If we didn't break off, does anyone believe that happens? The point is, MKB got by just doing whatever. I don't think they planned ahead at all. My site staff job for the most part was just dealing with ban cases. That's like 20% of the job on MKC. On MKC we're putting together schedules, figuring out what leagues we want to have, what extensions would fill a void here or there, etc.

A while back I asked what the difference between WL and EL were. I think they've changed now but the answer I got then was "I don't know." To me, this just screams we don't know what the hell our mission is. What is the purpose of having two leagues identical in structure competing with each other? It's redundant. For us, we have just MKU. Then we try other things out to compliment MKU. WL and EL looked like they were competing with each other. Then you have other leagues popping up later also. I guess CL is for newcomers who can't join the MKPS because it's been a year long thing? If not, the thing is, we don't need another league for newcomers, because division formatted tournaments already serve to be a thing for newcomers to begin with. MKPS makes it make sense however. And I know these leagues have seen changes and upgraded a little, and it's not a knock on those staff teams. It just seems that site is indecisive on what it wants. MKPS I've been a big fan of actually, because it seems finally like there's finally some definitive event that we're investing in. It's best that we just have a competition that people can agree is the main thing going on, and if the staff team of the main league is ever inefficient, the comm should just agree to redoing the staff. MKPS was the thing I saw recently though that I actually liked seeing out of this site though, so that's cool. It felt like there was finally some direction. I saw another tournament going on that's labelled the Old School League I think recently also. This isn't a knock on the organizers, because maybe these guys are doing a great job and just need exposure as a TO. The issue I have is that it just looks like yet another WCL format event just like CL. Maybe one is for veterans and one is for newcomers, but why not just have 1 larger league if they're both doing the same thing? Maybe I'm ignorant of the reasons behind everything, but it also has made me realize that it's not very clear. On MKC, every event we have on the site is very intentional and has an exact reason to exist, to fill a hole that maybe we haven't addressed otherwise. We plan everything around each other.

Now, I want to challenge the idea that a site is even needed. Forums are dying for good reason, and Discord is more than a suitable replacement. You could run the entire MKPS on Discord for instance. Our site is simply things we see as pretty necessary. It appeared to be a MKB-like forum at first, but it was always the plan to add features. Our site brings in some money by just having interesting things to look at. An interactive registry that people actually need to use allows for easier registration and result tracking, that all looks super clean. This is something Discord can't do. What is MKB currently offering that can't be done via Discord / Google Sheets? I'm not sure. Now, Lounge leaderboard on MKB is fine, don't get me wrong. But is this justification for the site existing?

We did away with the clan section because we think it's simply useless spam. If you believe a clan section is necessary though, you might as well have it not look dead. If you take a good look at the forums home, half the site isn't even used. A ton of sections haven't been touched in months including announcements, which is the site staff's literal job. Then you have the Museum section which was a plan from like 3 administrations ago, and nobody has even thought to maybe cut the losses and delete the section as it's incredibly clear it's not going to be used any time soon. That section has been up for so long that MKC got created and coded an entirely new system in the form of registry result storage that is doing what the original plan was for the museum, all in the span after that forum got created. Then there's the MK7 category, which may be even more harmful than it is meaningless. It's like the site is trying to pretend they have a MK7 scene here when it has absolutely no presence here at all. The thing is, this may make the few new MK7 players believe this is where MK7 is supposed to be, but that just nobody plays it, when that's entirely not true. They have their own lounge server that is fairly active. The lounge leaderboard on MKB isn't even the current leaderboard. The admin of it had to make a new post explaining what is happening and I think almost nobody here even cares or knows. There's a war arrangement thread in the MK7 section that has been sitting there for over an entire year, and it hasn't been used a single time. This looks literally so dumb from the outside perspective. My suggestion is to give the boards a clean scrubbing and make sure that everything that is still there has a reason to be there. This treatment to a game like MK7 is exactly why we had to leave. If the site can't even give enough of a shit to even figure out the current link to their actually active lounge, what would've happened to us if we didn't do anything?

Want to know a better place to have spam than clan threads? War arrangement threads? Help / suggestions? Discord servers. Part of the reason our forum is pretty inactive is because we realize that Discord is better. We used to have multiple community servers for MK8, and when we developed MKC, I was like, what's the purpose of having multiple war chats? Wouldn't it be more efficient for people to search in the same place? Two people could be searching for a war in different chats and never find a match that was out there. This goes back to the whole idea of knowing what you want and making it easier for people. When you have competing servers, everything becomes a mess. This site needs to be intentional with what it's doing and have the confidence to make shit work. I'd highly suggest ticket tool for the hypothetical MKB discord server by the way, as well. Our Discord server & site both have purpose because they both offer things the other can't. Having a site also helps obtain IPs to help with Alt protection in lounge for instance.

Features are important for a community. We're actively discussing the next project months in advance and Jazzy is doing an unbelievable job this year making the site better than the year before. By actually planning stuff ahead and understanding our goals, we're able to keep him not incredibly stressed / make the work enjoyable at times because we don't just randomly give him deadlines. We're like hey, this is what our next step is, when do you think we could get it done reasonably? Even with this loose approach, we're apparently dropping entirely new features that have to be developed at a faster pace than MKB announcements. This stuff is hard, I understand. Coders have to be motivated too. The best way for it to be motivating is to have a vision and see results, because it gives the work more meaning. If this is something that may be too difficult, I could see why MKC would be an attractive option. Again I'd never shut the door 100% on this, but if this is something the MKW community wants, they can at least start by changing up their community mentality and approach. Easier said than done though.

I personally believe the mentality / community leaders in this scene have done an incredibly poor job. I can't sit back and act like an expert anymore as an outsider, but I get the impression that top players are allowed to get away with shit like belittling people who are trying to learn the game because they pissed them off in lounge or something. This leads to these players becoming more hated, so of course people are going to counter by acting like trash on their streams when they mess up. It all escalates from there. People literally have to be better. This was hard for us, but I think it started to change a bit for our community when the top teams started to develop a mutual respect for each other and even our staff team. It hasn't always been smooth sailing, we've had some personal toxic bouts with some of the other top teams in 8D history, but I can at least respect the hell out of some of the other teams we face. One was incredibly toxic at the turn of the year and we simply approached them about it and they actually improved significantly. They put the community ahead of their own ego, and even as a rival I was extremely proud of them for that change. The ones who won't listen to shit have to go I think, as unfortunate as it is. I feel like we're pretty lenient now, but compared to MKB we're probably very strict. We couldn't get away with this on MKB because it's hard to just change the culture as I've pointed out before, but yeah.

Staff members who were on MKB back when I was still here didn't know how to create change. And I can't really blame them, because I couldn't do it on MKB. The thing is, nobody is individually responsible for the site's failure in some areas and as a result, the team developed a gigantic complacency where they simply wanted to defend themselves before helping site users because they felt unfairly attacked. It's no one individual's fault here. The community was completely unfair to the staff team before and after my time on the staff. And that sucks, but unfortunately if the staff team gets fed up because of how unfair of a job it is, no changes get made in the end. This is another reason why we had to leave. Only with good leadership and a good idea of what the community actually wants to achieve can change really happen.

I hope this doesn't sound too harsh, but I was just really frustrated with this community in the past and feel the need to just call it how I think it is. Please don't take any of this as needless aggression, because this wasn't the intent at all. Anyways, hoping for the best. I hear the admins are working on some stuff but it is pretty clear the community is either right or aren't being properly informed enough. Our staff record at MKC isn't perfect but it at least seems the community has some sort of trust in us that I just don't see here. So that should really get patched up. Open dialogue is good, and like I mentioned that may've been the number 1 weakness of this site when we were still here. The staff wasn't really interested in open discussions.
I’ll pay you a fiver to put us on Mario kart central
 

Rookie

New member
Joined
Jun 19, 2019
Messages
8
#16
A final comment, but from what I can tell I think that MKPS is going to probably be the future in this community, which solves a big problem in being directionless I think. My only message to the admins is that as it grows and new exciting announcements are inevitably made, that the admins really consider standing up to potential toxicity and don't go soft on it when new opportunities arise. This starts from the top, so I think admins should probably get on the same page as many of the top players / people in power and really have discussions about being better in some areas. If that gets accomplished the whole scene will undoubtedly get more support from everyone and things will be way healthier in the future.

This comment may feel out of place, but after reading everything again, seeing who is liking without commenting, and seeing people resign for strange reasons, I'm pretty sure I understand why now. Whatever the "behind scenes stuff" actually is, I hope you all take this into consideration. It's hard to fix community mentality issues without drastic changes, so setting the standard while new projects are still young is very important. Anyways, good luck everyone.
 
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